Hop Kits ======== Editor/Authors: Jan Vandenbrande & Randy Walterz Date: Oct 1, 1996 Copyright (c): 1986-2086 Here are a few extracts from the email messages below that explain the situation, what to do, where it fits, etc: ----------------------------------------------------------------- Problem: -------- Driving on certain types of road with ondulations roughly the size of the car (ie, poured concrete highways), at certain speeds the right front of the car will start hopping up and down. Many of the SoKal (LA) freeways are unfortunately of this type (worst is the 110 N starting at the 105), which is one of the road I unfortunately frequent. This is especially noticable if you have a stiffer suspension. It feels like a gorilla jumping up and down on your hood. The shaking is so bad, that my 1 year old daughter uses it to modulate her voice: waw-waw-waw-waw-waw Many 4 cyl A2 based cars with hydraulic mounts have this problem to some degree. If you have regular shift linkages (vs cable linkages) you will also see the stick shift move violently from side to side. VR6 Corrados do not seem to have this problem, they have stiffer and different mounts. Solution: --------- VW realized this problem (after numerous complaints, and also thanks to the help of Randy Walterz--DSP Solo II racer) and installed a Hop kit in some of their later A2 (8V?) 16V GTIs and GLIs. It's a small shock absorber that goes from the passenger side shock tower to the rear of the engine block, and it dampens the vibrations. The tricky part is to get the two brackets! Here are *roughly* the numbers for a Jetta, but I believe they are the same for all 1800-2000cc 4 cylinder blocks on A2 cars: Bracket (1) # 191 199 535 (to shock tower-gotta drill hole) Lower Bracket (1) # ??? ??? ??? (To engine block) Damper (1) # 191 199 543A Locknut (3) # 90074401 (These are M8 lock nuts) Bolt (1) # 0104503 Bolt (1) # 01023911 Bolt (1) # 0103609 Note that these nos are from Randy, and I think his prototype is a tad different from the unit I have on my G60 now. His did not have the lower bracket but instead bolts the damper directly to the block. The only part no that I have is from the damper, which is the same as his. G60 Retrofit ------------ This hop kit was designed for A2 Jettas and Golfs, but also fits on 1990 G60 Corrados (and probably others as well), with surprisingly little work: I bought a hop kit, a small shock absorber with two brackets, of a 16V GLI from Bugworld. The shock absorber mounts between the passenger side shock tower and the engine block (below the exhaust manifold). Last night I installed it and it was a total breeze. It's a perfect fit! You do have to move some of the fuel and vacuum tubes around, but they are all made from rubber so no problem. The bolts for the lower bracket are already there in the block, 2 of the 3 bolts for the upper bracket are also there. You still need to drill a 3rd hole in the side of the shock tower and use an 8mm nutset, the only way I know of adding a tapped hole in sheet metal (same thing what Neuspeed uses for its upper stress bars). I supose you could also use a bolt at the other side, but a nut set reinforces the hole, and it's of course so much neater and cooler. The Nutsets are made by AVK Industrial Products, Valencia, CA 91355, and the part no (with the "disposable tool") is AAT916-8125 for an M8x 1.250 thread (requires a 1/2" hole). If you call them, they'll give you a distributer closest to you. Because of limited space, you cannot get a drill in there from the engine bay, so I drilled a pilot hole using the flexshaft of my Dremmel tool, and dropped my front strut to drill a 1/2" hole from the wheel well side. A 90 degree drill attachment may have worked if you have a short enough drill bit. (Dropping the strut does not require disassembling the strut, just loosening the top nut, and you know how much fun that can be if you dont have the right tool. Hint: A 7/8" oxygen sensor too works). I test drove the car, and it did make quite a difference. I dont have that annoying hop any more. The Gorilla is finally dead. Instead, the car feels more solid, and, this may be a bit odd, it's as though I installed stiffer shocks up front. Any unevenness in the road feels less dampened, and I guess it's because the engine is now much stiffer sprung thereby serving less as a counter weight to absorb bumps. The car does feel more contollable under these conditions because the car follows the road instead of dancing to its own tune. Power is also transmitted a bit more direct, less slack being taken up by the jujube engine mounts. There may be a slight increase in noise, or rather, the tone has changed (deeper) rather than the amplitude. I also speculate that this enhancement will increase my engine mount life because some of the oscilatory stress is reduced. In any case, this is definitely a good investment (35$ + 7$ship + 6$ for 8mm nutset & 1 8mm bolt & 2 8mm self locking nuts) if you have this problem. If you dont have this problem, obviously, then dont fix it. Note that installation may vary on other cars. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ EMAIL ARCHIVE ------------- From usc!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!swiss.ans.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Fri Dec 9 12:52:47 PST 1994 Article: 45275 of rec.autos.vw Path: usc!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!swiss.ans.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: randywltrz@aol.com (RandyWltrz) Newsgroups: rec.autos.vw Subject: Re: Jetta motormount problem Date: 9 Dec 1994 02:20:05 -0500 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 36 Sender: news@newsbf01.news.aol.com Message-ID: <3c90f5$e7o@newsbf01.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf01.news.aol.com >the one by the radiator is the one w/ the most torque on it i know. >on my car it is rubber. on my father's '89 it is metal. i pushed on >that w/ a crowbar, it moved...but isn' t it supposed to ? Is it "hydraulic". >Bentley's manual didn't seem to go into tooo much detail w/ this.how far >should i be able to manually move it w/ a crowbar? we compared the >emergency brake on and slightly attempting to move forward. >my engine seemed to move considerably more than his >(up & down on the front mount). Now is this because i have >one of the older rubber mounts, and he has a metal mount? >are they both hydraulic? Your "rubber" front mount is Hydraulic, and they are prone to tear around the top bolt area, releasing gooiness, and pulling apart during accelleration, allowing your engine to raise way up. Even new ones allow too much movement. But your father's "metal" one has a rubber cylindrical insert in the metal bracket. I updated my 85 GTi autocross car to this one. As you noticed, this one works WAY better and is worth the $150.oo or so. But on my 86 GLi, I just replaced the hydraulic muffin type mount and it's not as effective as the metal type. Shudda putta metal one on instead. About the same price. Also- a "Freeway Hopkit" (engine damper) will prevent unwanted engine movement and adds a nice solid feel to the whole drivetrain. Again, parts are about $150.oo. It's a real bitch to install but well worth it from the first drive. If interested, I have some very important details on these two conversions, so you can e-mail if you like. I think I have recp'ts part #s also. somewhere. Randy From RandyWltrz@aol.com Tue Dec 13 22:38 PST 1994 Received: from mailer by fshpp1 with SMTP (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA29932; Tue, 13 Dec 1994 22:38:02 -0800 Return-Path: Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by UG.EDS.COM (PMDF V4.3-10 #4) id <01HKM0LKSPWG004YDU@UG.EDS.COM>; Tue, 13 Dec 1994 22:36:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.38.193.5/16.2) id AA14896; Wed, 14 Dec 1994 01:37:18 -0500 Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 01:37:18 -0500 From: RandyWltrz@aol.com Subject: Re: Motormount stuff.... To: jan@UG.EDS.COM Message-Id: <941214013715_5577182@aol.com> X-Envelope-To: JAN@FSHPP1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Status: RO Jan, If you're not familiar with it, the hopkit was VW's way of correcting a bad motormount system design. I got one of the first prototypes after threatening to get a Lemon-Law Refund on the car back in '84, after taking the car in 4 times to find the problem. Nobody could figure out what caused the hop!! I finally had to diagnose the problem myself by removing my hood, then I took the VW official for a ride on the freeway to watch the engine jumping up and down!! He was embarrased. Thus the hopkit. On my 85 GTi ( you know it, the silver DSP autocross car ), the pass. side of the engine would go into a rythymic "hop" on freeways, almost boucing my RF tire! Same thing when I bought an 86 GLi last year, I had to put a Hopkit on that too. It's a short shock-absorber like Damper that bolts to a lug on the engine block, and the other end bolts to a special bracket that affixes to the shock tower. I looked at a G60 engine bay, and it sure looks like it will fit, like the relationship of the engine to shock tower spacing. Looks like my A2 cars. As for the front mount, I dont know if the Golf's "Rubber/Metal Non-Hydraulic" mount will fit a Corrado or not. It kinda looked like it might. I didn't know that there was a stronger hydraulic mount for automatics! Sounds like a good idea to me. I have a regular hydraulic mount on my Jetta, but when I added the hop kit, the gorilla was gone. My GTi has the metal/rubber mount and hopkit, and it works better than the Jetta's, and the GTi is smoother than my street Jetta. The hopkit doesn't increase any vibration or noise by itself. If you dont know about Timmons VW Parts, He gives good discounts. Mike is a friend of mine who now autocrosses. He can probably tell you if any of this will fit. Hopkit components: (for my Jetta) Bracket (1) # 191 199 535 (to shock tower-gotta drill hole) Damper (1) # 191 199 543A Locknut (3) # 90074401 Bolt (1) # 0104503 Bolt (1) # 01023911 Bolt (1) # 0103609 You also need a tap M8-.125 (I think thats the size) You MUST tap hole in engine block to clean threads so you dont break bolt off in block. I did this. I had to REMOVE all engine mounts, among other things, and lower engine/trans 10 inches to drill-out and EZ-out the broken bolt. A 5 hour job. Should've tapped it first. I dont have part #s for the better rubber front mount assembly. Theres a bracket (to starter/block) that contains the rubber insert, another bracket that bolts to the crossmember (that uses the holes that the hydraulic was bolted to) two big flat rubber flaps that go on each end of the rubber insert, and a few large and small nuts and bolts for all this. This mount should be installed when the oil filter is off, like at an oil change. From usc!news.cerf.net!bengal.oxy.edu!acsc.com!newsserver.sdsc.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!newshost.marcam.com!zip.eecs.umich.edu!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!gatech!swiss.ans.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Mon Dec 19 14:10:21 PST 1994 Article: 46019 of rec.autos.vw Path: usc!news.cerf.net!bengal.oxy.edu!acsc.com!newsserver.sdsc.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!newshost.marcam.com!zip.eecs.umich.edu!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!gatech!swiss.ans.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: randywltrz@aol.com (RandyWltrz) Newsgroups: rec.autos.vw Subject: Re: Jetta motormount problem Date: 9 Dec 1994 02:20:05 -0500 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 36 Sender: news@newsbf01.news.aol.com Message-ID: <3c90f5$e7o@newsbf01.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf01.news.aol.com >the one by the radiator is the one w/ the most torque on it i know. >on my car it is rubber. on my father's '89 it is metal. i pushed on >that w/ a crowbar, it moved...but isn' t it supposed to ? Is it "hydraulic". >Bentley's manual didn't seem to go into tooo much detail w/ this.how far >should i be able to manually move it w/ a crowbar? we compared the >emergency brake on and slightly attempting to move forward. >my engine seemed to move considerably more than his >(up & down on the front mount). Now is this because i have >one of the older rubber mounts, and he has a metal mount? >are they both hydraulic? Your "rubber" front mount is Hydraulic, and they are prone to tear around the top bolt area, releasing gooiness, and pulling apart during accelleration, allowing your engine to raise way up. Even new ones allow too much movement. But your father's "metal" one has a rubber cylindrical insert in the metal bracket. I updated my 85 GTi autocross car to this one. As you noticed, this one works WAY better and is worth the $150.oo or so. But on my 86 GLi, I just replaced the hydraulic muffin type mount and it's not as effective as the metal type. Shudda putta metal one on instead. About the same price. Also- a "Freeway Hopkit" (engine damper) will prevent unwanted engine movement and adds a nice solid feel to the whole drivetrain. Again, parts are about $150.oo. It's a real bitch to install but well worth it from the first drive. If interested, I have some very important details on these two conversions, so you can e-mail if you like. I think I have recp'ts part #s also. somewhere. Randy From usc!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!news.ti.com!usenet Tue Dec 6 13:35:45 PST 1994 Article: 45062 of rec.autos.vw Path: usc!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!news.ti.com!usenet From: Kyle Flessner Newsgroups: rec.autos.vw Subject: Re: Engine Mount Question!? Date: 6 Dec 1994 17:46:37 GMT Organization: Texas Instruments Lines: 21 Message-ID: <3c281t$e82@tilde.csc.ti.com> References: <3bo4ohINN6ge@oasys.dt.navy.mil> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.247.181.45 > I have a question I think I have an engine mount that > has gone bad. symptom loud clunk when I engage the clutch. > > Anyway I asked my mechanic how much engine mount work would > cost. And he said it would depend of the mount. Could be > as much as $300. Is he right? He said the right ones are > a real bitch to get to. because of the timing belt and stuff. I purchased a used '90 G60 earlier in the year. I had never owned a VW or a Corrado for that matter, so I didn't know how the clutch was supposed to feel (Dealer said it was supposed to be that way being that it was a performance car and all). The clutch was just too tricky for me to believe that. If you let it out just a little too quickly a "loud clunk" would occur. Anyway, I took it to another dealer (VW) who replaced 3 worn engine mounts (front, right, and rear I think) before the problem was fixed. Total bill $800. Hope this helps, Kyle ('93 SLC) From usc!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!news.tamu.edu!rigel.tamu.edu!dwa6242 Thu Dec 15 13:34:56 PST 1994 Article: 45668 of rec.autos.vw Path: usc!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!news.tamu.edu!rigel.tamu.edu!dwa6242 From: dwa6242@rigel.tamu.edu (AUSTIN, DAVID WADE) Newsgroups: rec.autos,rec.autos.driving,rec.autos.misc,rec.autos.tech,rec.autos.vw Subject: Re: engine mount Date: 14 Dec 1994 08:34 CST Organization: Texas A&M University OpenVMScluster Lines: 44 Distribution: world Message-ID: <14DEC199408342463@rigel.tamu.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: rigel.tamu.edu News-Software: OpenVMS/VAX VNEWS 1.41 Xref: usc rec.autos.driving:44474 rec.autos.misc:28694 rec.autos.tech:106828 rec.autos.vw:45668 In article , Vic.Bartoloma@AtlantaGA.NCR.COM writes... >does anybody have a legit. way of testing the front engine mount on a vwJetta >'87? i have used the method of applying the emergencey brake and applying the >throttle slightly, with someone standing next to the engine to see how much it >moved. when i did this it moved more than a friend's '89 jetta's mottor did. i >also applied pressure with a crowbar, it moved, but so does a good one - so what >is the limit of movement, during any of these tests? >appreciate any feedback. >Vincent hiya vincent. my understanding is that all post 85 vw's have the hydraulic front mount, but after i understood that mine had it, i was not concerned with finding out for sure about others. Thus, i dont know about the 89. my front mount went out, and what the clunk i was heargin was, was the a/c dryer (i tyhink) hitting the hood on every shift! this left a minor rise in the hood and me thinking i'd broken something major!~ To test mine, i put on the parking brake, had a friend stand outside the car, floored it, skipped the clutch (slipped, sorry) and saw if the mount seperated or stayed together. Also, see if the top of the engine raises higher than allowed by the hood! to change it, simply order a new one (around $60 froinm Raopid parts in NY), unbolt or at least loosen the mounting bolts on the old one, jack the engine WAY up (bentley says to put the car on stands or ramps, i had neither, so tryed my ma(way), and would recommend NOT putting it on stands or ramps, as the amount of jacking required alm0ost lifts the car itlsef. I would feel uncomfortable doing the pushing and shoving required if the car were off the ground.), pull the old one out (at this point it should be VERY evident if you are doing the right thing, the mount should be in one peice, if not, it's busted!), put the old(WHAT!! NOT the OLD one, the NEW one!@) one in, and follow bentley procedure for tightening down. Also, i suggest some antiseizxe on the bolts. mines done quite will until recently, and now i suspect that one of the side mounts is past it;s prime. best o;luck!] DREW (on a borrowed account, so sorry for the spelling errors, i don't know yet how to delete or spell check, but i';ll discontiue posting until i fing out! i just had to followup here! also, send no email please!)~ > > > > > From gpadberg@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca Fri Feb 17 20:39 PST 1995 Received: from mailer by fshpp1 with SMTP (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA20494; Fri, 17 Feb 1995 20:39:30 -0800 Return-Path: Received: from freenet.edmonton.ab.ca by UG.EDS.COM (PMDF V4.3-10 #4) id <01HN63POH76O00HLLD@UG.EDS.COM>; Fri, 17 Feb 1995 20:38:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by freenet.edmonton.ab.ca (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/FEAC1.002) id AA37506; Fri, 17 Feb 1995 21:26:25 -0700 Date: Fri, 17 Feb 1995 21:26:25 -0700 (MST) From: gpadberg@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca Subject: Re: Jetta motormount problem (fwd) To: Jan Vandenbrande Message-Id: X-Envelope-To: JAN@FSHPP1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Status: RO This would definitely be FAQ material! I've suspected bad motor mounts for quite a while in my '86 Jetta (255Kkm) and replaced them all with no more positive results than when I started. And then this guy posted to the VW newsgroup. I bit, and he sent me this reply. I haven't tried any of the stuff in this message, but eventually I might (there's more urgent things that need fixing, but the little annoyances can be really trying too). Although you might want to contact this guy to ask his permission to use it in the FAQ and give proper credit where credit is due. Whatever happens, I hope that others can learn from this and not needlessly replace their engine mounts like I did!!! ---------- Forwarded message---------- Date: Fri, 20 Jan 1995 01:37:34 -0500 From: RandyWltrz@aol.com To: gpadberg@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca Subject: Re: Jetta motormount problem Hi Greg, Boy, I've gotten so many inquiries, I composed this comprehensive response. It should explain everything. You're about the 12th person to ask about this info !! The Hopkit was VW's way of correcting a bad motor-mount design. I got one of the first prototypes after threatening to get a Lemon-Law Refund on the car back in '85, after taking it back 4 times to find the problem. Here's the story....... On my 85 GTi, the front-passenger side would go into a "rythymic hop" on the Southern California freeways, almost boucing my RF tire! I told them that a mount MUST be broken, as I had already ruled-out a bent wheel, bad strut, or a bad wheel balance. The mechanics just couldn't figure out what was causing all the shaking !! I finally had to diagnose the problem myself by removing my hood, then driving the car on the freeway, and I immediately noticed the engine was"hopping" up and down on the passenger side. I showed this to the VOA people, and they magically Fed-Ex'ed me a fix-in-a-box, a "Hopkit", to take to my VW dealer for installation. Once the mechanics figured out how to install it, the hopping was cured, and it felt like a Completely New Car ! At 10,000 miles. Last year, I bought a used 86 Jetta GLi, and I noticed the Exact Same hopping, so I put a Hopkit on that too. Worked. Later, I broke and then replaced the front Hydraulic motor mount with a new factory Hydraulic mount. Shudda converted to the metal one. However, now I can directly compare the two different types of front mount on my two cars, and the metal type is far better than the hydraulic mount. BTW, the transmission mount down near the shift linkage is also hydraulic, and tends to tear and leak, just like it's big brother. The Hopkit's a short, stiff shock-absorber like Damper that bolts to a threaded hole in a tab on the engine block, near the lower backside near the timing belt cover, and the other end bolts up above to a special Bracket that affixes to the two studs on the passenger side shock tower. The Hopkit doesn't increase any engine vibrations or noise. The Hopkit *does* keep the engine from bouncing, and also *greatly* improves the feel of the whole car, like when letting out the clutch, hitting dips, and Especially when shifting. It was worth every dollar. (about $150.00) Later, I retrofitted my GTi to the stronger Metal/Rubber front mount, and it works WAY better than the Jetta's Hydraulic mount and hopkit, and the GTi is still smoother than my street Jetta. The Hopkit component's part #s (for my Jetta) are/were: Bracket (1) # 191 199 535 (affixes to R. shock tower) Damper (1) # 191 199 543A (shock type thingy) Locknuts (3) # 90074401 (2 for the two tower-studs & 1 for one bolt) Bolt (1) # 0104503 Bolt (1) # 01023911 Bolt (1) # 0103609 .......one bolt each for: bracket to shocktower, damper to bracket, & damper to eng.block (long, M8-.125) WARNING: very important !!! You also need a tap M8-.125 (I THINK that's the size, but you better compare it to the bolt's threads first.) Before you try to screw-in the lower damper bolt, you MUST re-tap the threaded hole in the engine block's tab, to clean-out the gunked-up threads so that you wont twist the bolt off in block!! I twisted mine off. I had to REMOVE ALL the engine mounts, among many other things, and lower the entire engine/trans assembly about 10 inches, so I could drill-out and EZ-out the broken-off bolt, using a 12 inch long drillbit. Even then I could just *barely* get it out and re-tapped. A major uh-oh. You also have to drill a hole through the R. shocktower to match a hole that's in the Bracket, for the 1 nut & 1 bolt to pass through. This is best done carefully with a dremel moto-tool from inside the engine compartment, using the Bracket's hole as a guide so it gets drilled exactly where it's supposed to be (you only have one shot at this hole), since you cant get a big drill motor in the tight area there. The Bracket also attaches to those two studs that face forward on the side of the shocktower with the other two nuts. As for the better metal/rubber front mount assembly, theres a metal bracket ( that bolts to starter/block area ) that contains the rubber mount insert, another smaller support that bolts to the front crossmember (and uses the holes that the hydraulic one was bolted to), two big flat rubber flaps (washers) that go on each end of the rubber insert, and a few large and small nuts and bolts for all this. This mount should be installed when the oil filter is off, like at an oil change. It's a fairly easy bolt-on. You do have to carefully jack the engine up kinda high to change any one of the mounts, by the way. Part #s are: ( at least from my old receipt dated april 1988 ) Mount (with the rubber insert) # 191 199 272C Support (to accept mount) # 191 199 221A Washers (2 rubber flaps) # 191 199 125 Bolt (passes thru rubber insert) # N10060701 Nut (threads onto above bolt :-) # N151002 (and maybe a few more nuts and bolts) And have the parts guy verify all these part #s, just in case. Do you know about Timmon's Volkswagen mailorder discount parts? The manager's a racing pal of mine, and he gives us a 10% or more discount on factory parts, with free UPS on orders over $75.oo , and no tax.!! He has a toll free number; (800) 266-3247. Ask for Mike (or Tom). Tell 'em Randy sent ya from the Net if you use him. Lemmy know if you need any more info on any of this. TTYL, Randy W. 85 GTi Racer 86 GLi Streeter ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I was wondering whether any of you experienced "engine hop" in any of your Corrados, and whether you were able to have VW fix it? This is NOT a problem unique to Corrados, but common to their other models as well (GTIs, GLIs). I am getting a bit pissed because both of our cars (GTI & C) have it at varying degrees, and VW as usual does not acknowledge any problem. [Some of you may already be familiar with my previous plights on this subject] Symptoms: ========= When driving on certain uneven roads (typically "wavy" concrete slab roads) at certain speeds (60 mph), the engine will "resonate" in its mounts (roughly 3-5 Hz). It's like having a weight at the end of a spring: At certain frequencies the weight will amplify the agitation at the other end. It feels like the right hand front tire suddenly stopped being round. The whole front of the car shudders like someone is jumping up and down on it (and that is roughly what the engine is doing). Inside the car, you'll see the shift knob wiggling back and forth strongly (again indicating that the entire engine & Xmission assembly is hopping). With the newer cable shifts, this will not occur. Having stiffer shocks usually amplifies the problem. Cure: ===== Install a hop-kit (really a damper) or change engine mounts. Cost: roughly $250. Problem: ======== Extremely hard to convince anyone at VW that this problem exists (usualy they say: can't recreate ... ). But obviously, they "know" about the problem, because there is a fix for it. As far as I am concerned, this is a *design flaw* to which they are ultimately responsible for. Where to test in LA: ==================== 110 freeway North bound from the 405 junction to the USC off ramp. Speed (GTI): 60-65 mph. The 405 freeway, southbound from the 110 to the 605 also causes engine hop in both cars but to a much lesser degree (Speed C: 75-80 mph). (NB: There are lots of other locations where the problems also appears). Does anyone remember the issue of VW&P where this was apparently mentioned? Jan jan@lipari.usc.edu jan@dev7.mdcbbs.com From jan%lipari.usc.edu%oberon.USC.EDU@usc.edu Thu Sep 7 12:16:25 1989 Return-Path: Received: from ames.arc.nasa.gov by lipari.usc.edu (3.2/SMI-3.0DEV3) id AA06801; Thu, 7 Sep 89 12:16:23 PDT Received: from usc.edu by ames.arc.nasa.gov (5.61/1.2); Thu, 7 Sep 89 12:11:17 -0700 Received: from lipari.usc.edu by usc.edu (5.59/SMI-3.0DEV3) id AA20585; Thu, 7 Sep 89 12:11:03 PDT Received: by lipari.usc.edu (3.2/SMI-3.0DEV3) id AA06766; Thu, 7 Sep 89 12:10:56 PDT Date: Thu, 7 Sep 89 12:10:56 PDT From: jan%lipari.usc.edu%oberon.usc.edu@usc.edu (Jan Vandenbrande) Message-Id: <8909071910.AA06766@lipari.usc.edu> To: info-vw@ames.arc.nasa.gov Subject: Shacking Status: RO Thanks for all the mail so far concerning the shaking of the 86 GTI. However, there is a point that hasn't come across: There is NO shaking on a smooth highway, or on uneven pavement at most speeds (I have only been able to bring it up to 85 as LA is a bit congested). This rules out misbalanced tires. The shaking ONLY occurs on poored concrete highways where there are "waves" in the road perpendicular to the direction of travel. Normally (and at speeds < 65mph) the car just nods. This car, above 65 starts to shake, with a very noticable sideways shaking of the stickshift. The steeringwheel remains almost perfectly calm through all of this. Another way of describing it is: The shocks start to resonate, except the resonance is at different frequencies, causing the apparent side-to-side rocking. APS was totally baffled by this. One shock is indeed week, and I am going to replace it this weekend. Springs are not the cause since the car would not be level (hadn't thought about this). (According to Aaron @ APS). Yesterday, I got a msg from Mike, describing a similar problem, which ended up being engine shake. It seems to be a rare occurance but some newer VWs have this problem it seems. VERY strange. I will investigate this also. Thanks for the responces so far. They have been very helpful. Jan ASK N.D. # 334 Date: 03-04-95, 13:42 Left by: BRIAN JOWETT Replied # 327 Sent to: VANDENBRANDE Status: Public Topic: Hopety Hop kit for G60 Rcvd: 03-30-95, 18:35 I'm guessing that you are talking about the small shock on the right side of A2 16valve engine compartments. I toyed with installing one on my G60 before it blew up (long story). With some creativity it could be made to work. I still have the parts if you are interested. However I live in Massachusetts so you may be better off going to a salvage yard. My phone no. is (413) 663 3161. Sorry for the spelling and grammar. See Ya . ASK N.D. # 343 Date: 04-03-95, 11:31 Left by: BRIAN JOWETT Replied # 342 Sent to: VANDENBRANDE Status: Public Topic: Hopety Hop kit for G60 Rcvd: No The shock h'mmm. I think the shock itself retails for about $60 without the brackets. So make an offer in that range unless you think its to much. The engine didn't throw a rod or anything like that. My guess is that the fuel line poped off the presure regulator. I suggest you check all the fuel line conections under your hood to make sure they are tight. It took my pristine car about 5 minutes to become a fireball! You know on G60s the fuel pump runs with the fan after the car is shut off. Thats why my car went up so fast. [D]elete, [R]eply, [S]top [ENTER=344+]: From corrado-l-owner@teleport.com Wed Nov 15 07:28 PST 1995 Received: from mailer by fshpp1 with SMTP (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA11650; Wed, 15 Nov 1995 07:28:49 -0800 Return-Path: Received: from desiree.teleport.com by UG.EDS.COM (PMDF V4.3-10 #4) id <01HXNVG3S0MO005AX5@UG.EDS.COM>; Wed, 15 Nov 1995 07:24:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id KAA20809 for corrado-l-outgoing; Sun, 12 Nov 1995 10:12:54 -0800 Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com (emout04.mail.aol.com [198.81.10.12]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA20781 for ; Sun, 12 Nov 1995 10:12:51 -0800 Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA18110 for corrado-l@teleport.com; Sun, 12 Nov 1995 12:25:17 -0500 Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 12:25:17 -0500 From: MrMadMatt@aol.com Subject: Re: bad engine mount... Sender: owner-corrado-l@teleport.com To: corrado-l@teleport.com Reply-To: corrado-l@teleport.com Message-Id: <951112122516_20095195@emout04.mail.aol.com> X-Envelope-To: JAN@FSHPP1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Precedence: bulk Status: RO Kitt, It probably isn't the transmission mount that is bad. I went through two engine mounts already. They usually get some kind of hole in them and the fluid leaks out, causing the engine to "flip-flop". I made my own rear mount out of urethane, the rear was the one I always destroyed but now the front one died and I am currently running a motor mount from a '95 Jetta GLX until I have time to make a urethane mount for the front. The Jetta mount isn't fluid filled like the Corrado and Passat ones and cost only half the price. It's holding up pretty well so far. Volkswagen Motorsport makes solid rubber motor mounts but they are about $200. Neuman Distributing and Autotech carry them I belive. Replacing them is no great chore either the mount you think is bad is the toughest one to get at. Any shop shouldn't charge you much more than an hour of labor to replace any one of them. GOOD LUCK Matt '93 black/tan SLC From jan@ug.eds.com Thu Sep 26 12:23 PDT 1996 Received: from cyhpr012.ug.eds.com by fshpp1.ug.eds.com with SMTP (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA28187; Thu, 26 Sep 1996 12:23:01 -0700 Return-Path: Received: by cyhpr012.ug.eds.com (8.7.1/16.2) id PAA07252; Thu, 26 Sep 1996 15:22:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Jan Vandenbrande Subject: Hop-Hop-Hop-Hop (G60) To: corrado-l@teleport.com Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 12:22:50 PDT Cc: jan@cyhpr012.ug.eds.com X-Mailer: Elm [revision: 212.2] Status: RO I finally broke down and ordered a used Hop kit from a 16V Jetta from BugWorld. You are probably wondering, "Does this guy *ever* stop, and what the heck is he up to now?" Problem: -------- Driving on certain types of road with ondulations roughly the size of the car (ie, poured concrete highways), at certain speeds the right front of the car will start hopping up and down. Many of the SoKal freeways are unfortunately of this type (worst is the 110 N starting at the 105). This is especially noticable if you have a stiffer suspension. It feels like a gorilla jumping up and down on your hood. The shaking is so bad, that my 1 year old daughter uses it to modulate her voice: waw-waw-waw-waw-waw Many 4 cyl A2 based cars with hydraulic mounts have this problem to some degree. If you have regular shift linkages (vs cable linkages) you will also see the stick shift move violently from side to side. VR6 Corrados do not seem to have this problem, they have stiffer and different mounts. Solution: --------- VW realized this problem (after numerous complaints, and also thanls to the help of Randy Walterz--DSP Solo II racer) and installed a Hop kit in their later A2 16V GTIs and GLIs. It's a small shock absorber that goes from the passenger side shock tower to the rear of the engine block, and it dampens the vibrations. The tricky part is to get the two brackets! I received the unit last night and did a trial fitting. It looks like it will fit in the 90 G60 (though tightly), most of the bolts are already there except for one. I need to drill a hole in the side of the shock tower to hold one of the brackets down. I'll either use a bolt or a nutset (like the neuspeed stress bars use) if I can find one. The unit is now drying at home after cleaning and partial repainting with high temp Rustoleum Black (mainly to prevent rust). More to follow... -- o ___|___ [\\] | Jan Vandenbrande jan@edsug.com __0 /\0/ /-------\ _ | http://alicudi.usc.edu:80/~jan/ \<,_ O \\ (_________) .#/_\_. | Autoracing, mountain climbing and running (_)/ (_) // [_] [_] |_(_)_| | of the bulls are sports, the rest are games From owner-corrado-l@teleport.com Mon Sep 30 10:29 PDT 1996 Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 12:22:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Jan Vandenbrande Subject: Hop-Hop-Hop-Hop (G60) Sender: owner-corrado-l@teleport.com To: corrado-l@teleport.com Cc: jan@cyhpr012.ug.eds.com Reply-To: Jan Vandenbrande Message-Id: <01IA34FJK8KW000JRM@UG.EDS.COM> X-Mailer: Elm [revision: 212.2] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Precedence: bulk Status: RO I finally broke down and ordered a used Hop kit from a 16V Jetta from BugWorld. You are probably wondering, "Does this guy *ever* stop, and what the heck is he up to now?" Problem: -------- Driving on certain types of road with ondulations roughly the size of the car (ie, poured concrete highways), at certain speeds the right front of the car will start hopping up and down. Many of the SoKal freeways are unfortunately of this type (worst is the 110 N starting at the 105). This is especially noticable if you have a stiffer suspension. It feels like a gorilla jumping up and down on your hood. The shaking is so bad, that my 1 year old daughter uses it to modulate her voice: waw-waw-waw-waw-waw Many 4 cyl A2 based cars with hydraulic mounts have this problem to some degree. If you have regular shift linkages (vs cable linkages) you will also see the stick shift move violently from side to side. VR6 Corrados do not seem to have this problem, they have stiffer and different mounts. Solution: --------- VW realized this problem (after numerous complaints, and also thanls to the help of Randy Walterz--DSP Solo II racer) and installed a Hop kit in their later A2 16V GTIs and GLIs. It's a small shock absorber that goes from the passenger side shock tower to the rear of the engine block, and it dampens the vibrations. The tricky part is to get the two brackets! I received the unit last night and did a trial fitting. It looks like it will fit in the 90 G60 (though tightly), most of the bolts are already there except for one. I need to drill a hole in the side of the shock tower to hold one of the brackets down. I'll either use a bolt or a nutset (like the neuspeed stress bars use) if I can find one. The unit is now drying at home after cleaning and partial repainting with high temp Rustoleum Black (mainly to prevent rust). More to follow... -- o ___|___ [\\] | Jan Vandenbrande jan@edsug.com __0 /\0/ /-------\ _ | http://alicudi.usc.edu:80/~jan/ \<,_ O \\ (_________) .#/_\_. | Autoracing, mountain climbing and running (_)/ (_) // [_] [_] |_(_)_| | of the bulls are sports, the rest are games From jan@ug.eds.com Mon Sep 30 12:03 PDT 1996 Received: from cyhpr012.ug.eds.com by fshpp1.ug.eds.com with SMTP (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA07175; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 12:03:41 -0700 Return-Path: Received: by cyhpr012.ug.eds.com (8.7.1/16.2) id PAA14857; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 15:03:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Jan Vandenbrande Subject: The Gorilla is gone To: corrado-l@teleport.com Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 12:03:36 PDT Cc: jan@cyhpr012.ug.eds.com X-Mailer: Elm [revision: 212.2] Status: RO This is the continuing saga of Jan trying to get rid of the 90 G60 engine hop problem at highway speeds on poured concrete roads with a stiffer than stock suspension. As some of you may recall (actually, we are *finally* back on line and last week's message finally got sent. Grrr), I described the problem as a "Gorillla bouncing up and down on the passenger side of the hood" which is caused by the engine jumping up and down in its mounts. Because most of the weight is on the passenger's side, the hop is most pronounced on the left. I bought a hop kit, a small shock absorber with two brackets, of a 16V GLI from Bugworld. The shock absorber mounts between the passenger side shock tower and the engine block (below the exhaust manifold). Last night I installed it and it was a total breeze. It's a perfect fit! You do have to move some of the fuel and vacuum tubes around, but they are all made from rubber so no problem. The bolts for the lower bracket are already there in the block, 2 of the 3 bolts for the upper bracket are also there. I still need to drill a 3rd hole in the side of the shock tower and use an 8mm nutset, the only way I know of adding a tapped hole in sheet metal (same thing what Neuspeed uses for its upper stress bars). I supose you could also use a bolt at the other side, but a nut set is better because it reinforces the hole, and it's of course so much neater and cooler. Because of limited space, you cannot get a drill in there from the engine bay, so I drilled a pilot hole using the flexshaft of my Dremmel tool, and will be dropping my front strut to drill a 1/2" hole from the wheel well side. (That does not require disassembling the strut, just loosening the top nut, and you know how much fun that can be if you dont have the right tool). Despite the 3rd hole, I test drove the car, and it did make quite a difference. I dont have that annoying hop any more. The Gorilla is dead. Instead, the car feels more solid, and, this may be a bit odd, it's as though I installed stiffer shocks up front. Any unevenness in the road feels less dampened, and I guess it's because the engine is now much stiffer sprung thereby serving less as a counter weight to absorb bumps. The car does feel more contollable under these conditions because the car follows the road instead of dancing to its own tune. Power is also transmitted a bit more direct, less slack being taken up by the jujube engine mounts. There may be a slight increase in noise, or rather, the tone has changed (deeper) rather than the amplitude. I also speculate that this enhancement will increase my engine mount life because some of the oscilatory stress is reduced. In any case, this is definitely a good investment (35$ + 7$ship + 6$ for 8mm nutset & 1 8mm bolt & 2 8mm self locking nuts) if you have this problem. I dont know why I waited so long! -- o ___|___ [\\] | Jan Vandenbrande jan@edsug.com __0 /\0/ /-------\ _ | http://alicudi.usc.edu:80/~jan/ \<,_ O \\ (_________) .#/_\_. | Autoracing, mountain climbing and running (_)/ (_) // [_] [_] |_(_)_| | of the bulls are sports, the rest are games From owner-corrado-l@teleport.com Mon Sep 30 13:48 PDT 1996 Received: from mailer.ug.eds.com by fshpp1.ug.eds.com with SMTP (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA09550; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:48:03 -0700 Return-Path: Received: from greta.teleport.com (greta.teleport.com) by UG.EDS.COM (PMDF V5.0-7 #15834) id <01IA3AAPW1YO000LFA@UG.EDS.COM> for jan@UG.EDS.COM; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:10:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by greta.teleport.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA27248; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:10:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by greta.teleport.com (bulk_mailer v1.3); Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:10:23 -0700 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by greta.teleport.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) id NAA27170 for corrado-l-outgoing; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:10:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from desiree.teleport.com (desiree.teleport.com [192.108.254.21]) by greta.teleport.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA27157 for ; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:10:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from edsug.com (mailer.ug.eds.com [134.244.3.234]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA13418 for ; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:10:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cyhpr012.ug.eds.com (cyhpr012.ug.eds.com) by UG.EDS.COM (PMDF V5.0-7 #15834) id <01IA3A8UG6F4001LKA@UG.EDS.COM> for corrado-l@teleport.com; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:08:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by cyhpr012.ug.eds.com (8.7.1/16.2) id QAA15018; Mon, 30 Sep 1996 16:14:39 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:14:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Jan Vandenbrande Subject: Hopping Gorillas Sender: owner-corrado-l@teleport.com To: corrado-l@teleport.com Reply-To: Jan Vandenbrande Message-Id: <01IA3A8UH902001LKA@UG.EDS.COM> X-Mailer: Elm [revision: 212.2] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Precedence: bulk Status: RO Just to clarify something: > > I hope it fits your G60. I tried to install mine (unsucessfully) on my > VR6. No way it will fit the VR6 motor. Fuel lines were first problem, > then where to attach down below? Different mount than the 4 cyl. I hope > it works for you! > The hop kit will NOT fit on the VR6s (dont really need them IMO). All I can tell you is that it does fit on the 90 G60, and I assume most other G60 (& 8v & 16V) Corrados. -- o ___|___ [\\] | Jan Vandenbrande jan@edsug.com __0 /\0/ /-------\ _ | http://alicudi.usc.edu:80/~jan/ \<,_ O \\ (_________) .#/_\_. | Autoracing, mountain climbing and running (_)/ (_) // [_] [_] |_(_)_| | of the bulls are sports, the rest are games